Vic Bobbin Style 1 Stanley Meyer

Hydrogen Hot Rod
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Winding the VIC 

all the VIC s are based on the same concept.frequency switch to transformer  transformer, to inductors, to cell

Stanley A Meyer Vic Bobbin fat big core
Stanley A Meyer Vic Bobbin fat big core
Stanley A Meyer Vic Bobbin fat big core
Stanley A Meyer Vic Bobbin fat big core
Brads Example of a Quality Build

Using Radio Am Ferrite Rods with close Al values,

 

Brad designed and 3d printed the corners and joiners with adjusters and some very cool secy looking bobbins  to handle the High volt DC Getting back to Stan's Vic, can everyone see how the gap between the cores controls the coupling from the Primary to the Secondary which in return controls and fine tunes the voltage in the secondary and L1.

 

And if you follow through with this to the positive plate, it also fine tunes the charge on that plate. It would be easy to create a gap with setup by using two shorter rods on sides with coils instead of one long rod.

-New drive circuit provides a variety of functions and adjustments
-Ryobi 18V battery + programmable power supply makes setup more portable
-VIC made from Mn-Zn 10mmx100mm ferrite rods provides more accurate inductance's with similar
turns and resistance values as Stan's original VIC These cores have a lower AL value than all the
others I've tried plus a much larger winding window.   

 

So, these cores give me much closer inductance values
 for the same amount of turns and resistance than Stan  had in his VIC.

Mostly what I'm trying to find is an off the shelf core that will give me the right balance. What I have found is that most off the shelf ferrite cores have AL values that are much too high, honestly I'd be surprised if any of them worked.

 

So far I think the rods (or the flat bar your using) have the best chance of working.

The problem  I Had -You can gap any core and get the right inductance values, but the gap creates an invisible inductance and if it's too high it will take all the voltage.

 

I posted a video on this a while back on how the leakage inductance is so high my tests showed I needed a load impedance of greater than 1M ohm just to get the voltage from the turns ratio across the load. 

Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Coil.png

Vic Winding for 11 clell tubes

 

VIC:- primary - 200 turns / 24 gauge- secondary - 600 turns / 36 gauge- resonant chokes - 2 x 100 turns / 24 gauge

(in accordance with Stan Meyer`s US Patent 4,936,961)

 

MAx Millers Forum

The primary is a single coil 500 or 600 turns of 30ga

secondary is around 3000 turns 30 ga

c1 is around 3000 turns of 30 ga

c2 is around 2800 turns of 30ga

all in the same direction in relation to the core shape the feedback was center tapped......looks to be

 

NOtes 

the transformers stan made were 29GA and 36Ga secondaries. 
it depends on what you wish to try. 
i would suggest trying exactly what stan made. the square vic was all 29 GA 29-30GA

The VIC Coils

  • Transformer Primary Yellow 

  • Transformer Seconday Blue

  • Chokes Red 

  • Pick Up Feed Back Green

 

Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores
Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores
Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Round Bobbins

Stanley Meyer VIC Round Bobbins

Stanley Meyer VIC Round Bobbins

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Bobbins

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Bobbins

Stanley Meyers VIC Resin Bobbins

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer Vic Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer Vic Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

Stanley Meyer VIC Resin Cores

WIRE 

29AWG Heavy Polyimide 240C rated, 29 AWG, .0113"

Stanley A Meyer Vic Flat Core Wire Speci
Stanley A Meyer Vic Flat Core Wire Speci

CORES

Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores

We don't have the AL value of the cores we are using but here are 

some calculations  

Original STAN

flat are 2000 perm

custom ordered, 

Ronnie = Working Vic

Took some measurement, this is what i got.
88 turns one complete layer on bobbin 29awg .0113
65.87uh with no core material
4.811 mh with core material with no pressure on the core material at all just together
18.05 mh with core material with all the pressure i could put on them pressing them together

One thing is though is that we can change the variables around so it doesn't necessarily have to match stands as long as the inductance reactance is still correct

What I find interesting is how much change you can make in the inductance with pressure.
it's supper sensitive with that last bit of pressure. 
I noticed that with the 10turn test.

 

AL VALUE 

Looks like your around 230-450 AL. That's great. Very close to the original VIC core. Makes me wonder what the Ue was of the original cores so the type of ferrite could be figured out. I could do the math to figure out the Ue, then we could figure out the exact material of the original vic core, even though I don't think it's necessary. If you have the right material I don't think gapping the core would be necessary either, you could find resonance by changing the frequency, but it takes a different design. In that case I believe the PLL circuit will work. It's designing the coil that's hard, but I think we've got that down now:)
 

 

NON Original 

Not working vic
UY1658 Cores this one is not original it is put here to get you understanding 

i did a quick calculation here: http://powermagnetics.co.uk/calculator

i have 10 turns and 21.52uH

that's an AL value of 215.2             this is with 1/2 the core.

when i put the 2 together and make a 0 core its 3100 AL value.

so I'm guessing we calculate it as an open core.

as the gap changes the AL value... thoughts?

also that was with 32 AWG wire, on the bare core not on a bobbin...

with 28AWG its 116.3 AL value half core    and closed core is 2600 AL

 more calculations on the bobbin.

10 turns closed core is 3100AL   and open is  135AL
wire wrapped close to the bobbin end with the core.

calculations on the AL value. They will help us a great deal.
Looks like the AL with the core gapped is pretty close to the 5 coil vic by Stan.

Just remember as you increase the gap you are also changing the coupling between the coils.

Russ, I think you were off by one number in your calculations above

 AL=L(in nH)/ #turns, then take the sqrt of that number

18mH=18,000,000 nH
18,000,000/88=204,505
Sqrt 204,505=452AL

3D Printing Bobbins

3d Printing has now allow bobbins to be printed in every home with a pc and 3d printer.

I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.


Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.

 gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap.  It's looking very promising. :D  I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below.  I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'.  I tried it with no support and had sagging

I just finished revision 2 of this sketch and added the end piece for the bobbins; see attachments. A minor adjustment to the core ceiling of the bobbin was lowered a bit to reflect the core dimensions of 0.5"W x 0.125"H.

Nothing special had to be done to convert the sketch to millimeters? You simply had to go in Sketchup:
Window -> Model Info -> Units -> Format: Decimal | Millimeters

I found out that I needed to rotate the objects in Google Sketchup.  I tried a print with it rotated and it worked much better with the raft.  There was a trade off though, the "wings" on the bobbin didn't start off great.  Printing with out the raft would be the ideal way to do it.  I added some little indentations to the bobbin walls.  They are only 0.5 mm deep, and they strengthen the walls, by "glueing" each side together.  My test print only had 2 indentations, and I found adding a 3rd would be better.  They shouldn't affect how the coils are wound.  
I also extended the supports outside of the bobbin.  I was having spots where the nozzle wasn't feeding material at the starts of the lines.  That will give it time to get flowing again.  
Sketchup and STL files are attatched. 

Stanley A Meyer 5-coil-VIC-Shaded_DIM.PN
Stanley A Meyer U-Core.jpg
Stanley A Meyer 5-Coil-VIC_Split.PNG
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr

WINDING

Ulf told me that each coil was later checked and tuned by hand also...how, he is not sure but with LRC meters and such... yes..everything was matched one part at a time... This he remembers,

Coil Winder Machine Page Here

Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
VIC6.0-COILPACK.jpg
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr
Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr

Aluminium Case

The aluminium case helps stop coupling to the desk or plastic surfaces , and other things, it also can help increase capacitance, and stop health effect of emf.

Stanley A Meyer Bobbin Flat Core Vic  Tr

Testing Measurement

Ulf told me that each coil was later checked and tuned by hand also...how, he is not sure but with LRC meters and such... yes..everything was matched one part at a time... This he remembers,

Coil Testing Page Coming  Here Soon 

Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores
Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores
Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores

Resistor   220 ohm code 411 9037.

Resister is 220 to 250 ohms by the way, at 50hz presents low impedance, at 5khz it presents impedance in mega ohms. Fuel cell presents impedance at 5khz in mega ohms, in series with L2 the fuel cell presents an impedance match. When impedance match occurs, L2 is happy to communicate with the fuel cell. No impedance match - no communication. Dc bias builds up on cell because of diode won't allow the pendulum to swing in tank circuit. Hope everyone is beginning to understand.

edit  below  chokes cw and secondary & primary ccw

30 ga wire for the bobbins on the C coresdon made a small error , he said 29 ga, 29 ga is not correct to fill the bobbin as the picture shows. 30 ga must be correct

Stanley Meyer Bobbin VIC Cores
Stanley  A Meyer teflon tape.png

Understanding the combined capacitence

resistance and choking methods

 

Once I figured out I need to add more turns to primary to get 10.5 ohms of resistance I became worried about turns ratio. 

 

The process looked right is excel spread sheet above I did not trust the turns ratios was correct, s

Ronnie 

Winding data shows I need a ratio of 5.567 to 1. Will not know if I get close enough until I actually wind the wire. I plan to start out with primary winding know length of wire that is equal to 10.5 ohms. 

 

Coil winder will then give me number of turns for this resistance.  Will do the same for secondary to see how close I get turns ratio.  There were comments about being something than you have to play with to get correct. 

 

Given a fix resistance and fixed turns ratio only thing in this system I can see you can change is spool width. I expect the changing the secondary would have the most effect do to increased length of each turn as you add more wire. 

 

There is some discussion about this issue in the thread.
In this post he also explains coil relation to secondary and goal of getting voltage potential across coil plates.

 : "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
 
Using Stan's Vic and the numbers Don gave us as an example,

I will attempt to show how to impedance match it all.


Question is what is the purpose of Impedance matching?
The answer is Watts in must equal Watts out. (Isn't that right Mr. Watts: clap:)

Let's start with the Primary, I have already show it has 10 ohms

of impedance in it and how it is calculated.

Line(Primary) side=10 ohms
12volts/10ohms=1.2amps
1.2amps*12volts=14.4watts

Next we use a transformer (Amplifier) to match the Load side.
we need to know the total resistance of the load side.
Secondary side= 72.4+76.7+70.1+Re78.54+11.5=310 ohms

Now that we have a total resistance of the line side of 10ohms
and a total resistance of the load side of 310ohms

Next we take the 310ohms and 10ohms and use this formula to get the turn ratio.
Ns/Np=sqrt Zs/Zp   sqrt (310/10)=5.567
So we need a turn ratio of 5.567 to 1

We know our line voltage is 12volts We can times this by the turn ratio

of 5.567 which is =66.816 Load Voltage
Now we have our load voltage.
Next we calculate the load watts
using formula (66.816 ^2)/310ohms= 14.4 watts

That's how you do it. :bliss:
 
Matt, The 11.5 is the feedback coil.....and yes that is correct the chokes must match the secondary....That's why if you take turns off the L2 they must be added back to L1. In Stan's example secondary is 73ohms close enough,

then 76ohm for the L1 and 70 for L2 if you take 3ohms off the L1 and put that 3 ohms back on the L2 you can see they all match to 73ohms.

 

Why does he do this? It's to get the slight potential difference in voltage needed on the chokes. Yea My brain can't keep all this straight, that's the reason for the spreadsheet. Too much math to deal with all at the same time. Now you can see when someone ask me a question, how my brain gets all scrambled.
End Thread Comment

=============================================

Before doing anything else I decided to see what my systems would look like with 29 gage wire.  I used the information from the primary coil I wound to estimate the ohms per turn and came up 0.0156omhs/ft. (Coil I wound was 8.4 ohms and 540 turns so I divided 8.4/540 to get this estimate). I then used this number to estimate the number of turns required to get the required ohms for each coil.  Finally, I added all the secondary side turns include the one for Re and divided it my primary turns and got 29.45143. 

 

This is close to 30 a 30:1 ratio.  I am not sure if this is correct but none of the other ratios seemed correct.  I include Re even though there is not a coil for it as Re ohm value was include by Ronnie in doing his calculations and it did not seem right to leave it out.  I do know there will be some changes in value as length of turn on larger coils will be slightly longer which should reduce number of turns required to reach desired ohm value.

 


Table below is from my excel sheet I used repeat Ronnie’s calculations. I find do the calculations myself helps me understand where numbers come from and why.  Again, the turns work at this point is an estimate to see if I was even in the right ball part.

As the above table gave close to a 1:30 ratio I will continue winding coils to see what results I actually get.   As I want to get keep the ohm values close to numbers above, I am planning on winding the number of feet of wire that should give me desired ohm value.  This means I will need a method to accurately determine desire length of each coil. 

 

To do this I build a jig that I can wind wire on.  It will be two spools 5 feet apart mounted on a board, so each wrap is 10 feet long.  Using spools this far apart I should be easily able to fit the longest length.

Note:  There was some discussion in the thread about dealing with turns ratio and resistance mainly that one effects the other.  Discussion did not say which is more important other than Ronnie’s comment to not mess with turns ratio.  See his discussion on keeping Secondary, C1 and C2 ohms around 73 ohms and taking turns off C2 and putting them on to keep total ohm value of those two coils at average of 73 ohms. i.e. for each turn taken off C2 one needs to be put back on C1.  Which means you need to have enough wire available to do that.

 

  It was recommended that you leave wire on C1 and C2 long enough to adjust the balance which means you should have some length of wire that is not on the coils. This means you will have some wire and ohms that are not in turns calculation. Extra wire resistance is this there until satisfied with balance, but it will not be in magnetic field, so I am not sure how to account for this.

At this point I still do not have cells, just trying to understand why this piece is the way it is and if I can build it correctly even though I understand adjustment of C1 and C2 require properly configured cells. Ronnie even states you need to start with cells and build to them not the other way around as they define load you trying to balance.

I have rewound about 70 feet of wire that I took off the primary coil on to the Feedback coil as I calculated half of 11.5 was slightly over 70 feet. Turned out to be slight less than 70 feet to give 5.75 ohms (measured). Once I add the center tap for the 5-volt offset I will add another 70 feet.  Turns actual wire resistance is slightly high that estimated reference number I was using.

I wound it this way a that is what circuit diagram shows.  I think I read others have wound both wire at the same time. I have been trying to figure out which is the correct way and it may not matter the way it is connect to K14.  Voltage difference is not issue as it phasing of the signal is what is being used.

Stanley A Meyer Calculations
Stanley A Meyer WFC HHO Ohm reference

 

 Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
 
What is the Total Z of this circuit using Stan's formulas?

 

You can work out the Z value of the L1 and L2 along with the capacitance value from the chart below and the formulas from the Tech Brief  Eq 1,8,9.

This will be with air core values.

 

I would like to see everyone's answer; this could show how everyone has a different answer.

Also notice where the #(10) shows up.
 
Only thing I see 10 of is the ohms for the cells. 

  (could Re be a factor of 10??)

Also I find it interesting that I appears many people do not seem to build the feedback coil even though Ronnie uses the Z value in all his calculations including the turns calculations.

The 10-11 cell is not made to be adjustable.

 

It is made to be stable, Meaning, every cell machined to the same size so each and everyone will have the same capacitance.

 

Like max said that is the reason their is one cell that is not hooked up.

 

That is how you adjust the capacitance, by hooking up one through what ever to get the capacitance you need.

 

As in the video you can see by adding more capacitance you can reduce your inductance. If you are using a varic to drive your cells then you know your drive frequency is 120Hz once it goes through the bridge rect.

 

Then you need a resonate frequency for the inductor and capacitors that will match your drive frequency. The permeability of the core is something we all have been playing with. My best luck so far is some were around 2000 perm.

 

The higher perm. the less winds you need which will give you the same inductance as a low per. with more turns if you follow me. Right now I am useing a low perm on the primary and a high perm on my chokes. It is working out well for me right now.

 

You will have to experiment with your setup. That is way it is so critical that everyone have the same setup. Because what works for my setup want work on yours.

 

NOTE FROM TONY WOODSIDE

 

Well as Stan states in his pap